Being polite? | If SSIW is helping you, why not help us? Get DAILY lessons: Become an SSIW Member!

Tell us about the fun you've had trying to use your Welsh...:-)

Being polite?

Postby paws3 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:50 am

Hi all,
Having no (welsh speaking) friends or family, I joined an informal group but was pulled up on using 'ti ' instead of 'chi' as I don't know them.

I am now on lesson 19 (Northern 1) where we are using 'chi' as plural for you. Is it also the formal singular 'you'?

The group want's me to use chi which has cut down on a lot I can say, as I don't think I can go back and just substitute 'chi' into phrases that I have already learnt (like byddi di'n to make byddi chi'n).... or can I?
paws3
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:31 pm

Re: Being polite?

Postby DavidHT » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:53 am

paws3 wrote:Hi all, Having no (welsh speaking) friends or family, I joined an informal group but was pulled up on using 'ti ' instead of 'chi' as I don't know them.
I am now on lesson 19 (Northern 1) where we are using 'chi' as plural for you. Is it also the formal singular 'you'?


Helo, I can certainly help you with the above. Ti is you singular informal, and chi is you singular formal, or you plural -- Even if it's a group of people where you know all of them, you still need to use chi.

Hope this helps.
David HT
I reached (southern) cwrs 2 gwers 18, and struggled. Went back to the beginning of course 2, by way of revision, and light relief! Currently revising gwers 9.
Please feel free to correct my Welsh, and if you can explain why that's even better!
Currently doing Mynediad 2 at evening classes.
User avatar
DavidHT
SSiW Member
 
Posts: 673
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:51 pm
Real name:: David H-T

Re: Being polite?

Postby lambiek » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:58 am

DavidHT wrote:
paws3 wrote:Hi all, Having no (welsh speaking) friends or family, I joined an informal group but was pulled up on using 'ti ' instead of 'chi' as I don't know them.
I am now on lesson 19 (Northern 1) where we are using 'chi' as plural for you. Is it also the formal singular 'you'?


Helo, I can certainly help you with the above. Ti is you singular informal, and chi is you singular formal, or you plural -- Even if it's a group of people where you know all of them, you still need to use chi.

Hope this helps.


As David says, and just to be clear: the verb endings are the same as for the plural "chi", not "ti", so "byddwch chi" etc.
Mae syniadau gwyrddion di-liw yn cysgu'n wyllt
User avatar
lambiek
SSiW Member
 
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:50 pm
Location: Darlington, De Cymru Newydd, Awstralia
Real name:: Louis

Re: Being polite?

Postby Aran » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:36 am

Hi Paws - is this a group of Welsh learners, or Welsh speakers? No-one who wants to encourage learners should be giving them a hard time about formal/informal/plural usage.

As a quick and messy solution (my favourite kind!), yes, just go ahead and use ch instead of t - and then fine-tune as necessary - that will at least show that you are paying respect to the group. But please don't get trapped into worrying/thinking too much about it - you've got a huge amount of Welsh, and you need to be allowed to enjoy using it!...:)
Loan $25 somewhere worthwhile with the SSiW Kiva team
Forum Guidelines | How far have you got with SSiW? Let us know HERE
User avatar
Aran
SSi CEO
 
Posts: 16971
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:52 pm
Real name:: Aran!

Re: Being polite?

Postby Spenny » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:37 am

paws3 wrote:Hi all,
Having no (welsh speaking) friends or family, I joined an informal group but was pulled up on using 'ti ' instead of 'chi' as I don't know them.

I am now on lesson 19 (Northern 1) where we are using 'chi' as plural for you. Is it also the formal singular 'you'?

The group want's me to use chi which has cut down on a lot I can say, as I don't think I can go back and just substitute 'chi' into phrases that I have already learnt (like byddi di'n to make byddi chi'n).... or can I?

Pulled up as in 'politely pointed out' or something a little more pointed? In the groups I have been to, we have been entirely relaxed about the issue, discussing it, but not criticising it.

As someone on the first course, you should expect and be given a wide range of tolerance.

My daughter discovered after several weeks that she'd been using the informal du in German with the head teacher and this was a major faux pas as although all the teachers used du amongst each other, they didn't to the head. However, she was never corrected over it, and no offence was taken.
The philosophies of Aran Jones: "Wanting to buy milk is a state of mind."
User avatar
Spenny
The Magnificent Saith
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Tue May 12, 2009 4:59 pm
Location: Dorridge, West Midlands
Real name:: Ian Spencer

Re: Being polite?

Postby Tahl » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:29 am

Aran wrote:Hi Paws - is this a group of Welsh learners, or Welsh speakers? No-one who wants to encourage learners should be giving them a hard time about formal/informal/plural usage.

As a quick and messy solution (my favourite kind!), yes, just go ahead and use ch instead of t - and then fine-tune as necessary - that will at least show that you are paying respect to the group. But please don't get trapped into worrying/thinking too much about it - you've got a huge amount of Welsh, and you need to be allowed to enjoy using it!...:)

Paws, if I were you, I wouldn't try to use 'chi' until you've gotten to it in SSIW. As you suspect, you can't just drop 'chi' in in place of 'ti' without changing the verb conjugations.

As a result, I'd be inclined to tell the group politely (in English?!) that you will switch to 'chi' when you are able to, but for now you hope they'll understand that your use of 'ti' reflects inexperience and not impoliteness. To be honest, if they have a hard time with that, they may object to the linguistic informality of a lot of what you learn in SSIW. If they turn out to be 'don't say X, say Y' people, try reading this thread for some suggested coping methods. :cool:
Image
Currently working on: SSIW Course 3, Lesson 21 (Southern);
SSIS Course 1, Lesson 19; SSIS MFSA Tourist Spanish, Lesson 10.
User avatar
Tahl
SSiW Angel
 
Posts: 5923
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:40 am
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Real name:: Diane

Re: Being polite?

Postby hewrop » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:08 pm

Tahl wrote:As a result, I'd be inclined to tell the group politely (in English?!) that you will switch to 'chi' when you are able to,

I agree entirely with the gist of what you are saying, Diane, but what if she wants to address everyone in the group rather than individual members where the second person plural (chi) would be the only thing that made sense? :-?
I have a possible answer to my own question. How about using a third person singular work-around such as "how is the group today?" = "sut mae'r grŵp heddiw?"
hewrop
The Magnificent Saith
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:48 pm

Re: Being polite?

Postby paws3 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:47 pm

Dear all,
The group is almost all learners who have done formal 'lessons' for years and are much more advanced than me. I heard about the group by accident and just turned up.

We also have a native speaker who sometimes comes and I think the person who commented was perhaps worried (?) than I was seeming to be rude to them...

Also it may be a bit of 'we have been taught to use chi' and therefore you should.

However it's probably me being over-sensitive as well. Why is it I can talk to my cat in Welsh but when I'm with that group I can't think of the simplest thing to say!
Thanks for all the support.
Paws
paws3
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:31 pm

Re: Being polite?

Postby Tahl » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:00 pm

hewrop wrote:
Tahl wrote:As a result, I'd be inclined to tell the group politely (in English?!) that you will switch to 'chi' when you are able to,

I agree entirely with the gist of what you are saying, Diane, but what if she wants to address everyone in the group rather than individual members where the second person plural (chi) would be the only thing that made sense? :-?

Sure, but if you haven't learned 'chi' yet, it's a lot better to use 'ti' than not to talk at all!

paws3 wrote:The group is almost all learners who have done formal 'lessons' for years and are much more advanced than me. I heard about the group by accident and just turned up.

We also have a native speaker who sometimes comes and I think the person who commented was perhaps worried (?) than I was seeming to be rude to them...

Also it may be a bit of 'we have been taught to use chi' and therefore you should.

However it's probably me being over-sensitive as well. Why is it I can talk to my cat in Welsh but when I'm with that group I can't think of the simplest thing to say!

It's hard to get past the 'they all know so much more than me!' feeling. What I can say is: have faith in yourself. You don't know yet what they know, but you know what you know, or what you're learning. Don't let other people, whether well-intentioned or self-important or both, derail you from practicing and enjoying your Welsh (which, with SSIW, will feature a lot about cats and dogs). Other stuff will come gradually. :D
Image
Currently working on: SSIW Course 3, Lesson 21 (Southern);
SSIS Course 1, Lesson 19; SSIS MFSA Tourist Spanish, Lesson 10.
User avatar
Tahl
SSiW Angel
 
Posts: 5923
Joined: Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:40 am
Location: Alexandria, Virginia, USA
Real name:: Diane

Re: Being polite?

Postby hewrop » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:04 pm

paws3 wrote:Why is it I can talk to my cat in Welsh but when I'm with that group I can't think of the simplest thing to say!
Thanks for all the support.
Paws

I've tried Welsh, English, French & Italian with our cat but she studiously ignores everything I say. Our dog, on the other hand will respond enthusiastically to any sound I make.

In relation to finding things to say to my own species, I confess I cheat. :oops: I rehearse what I want to say and then steer the conversation around so that I can say it. The result is that everyone thinks I speak brilliant Welsh. :harhar: Please don't tell any one else. :D
hewrop
The Magnificent Saith
 
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 6:48 pm





 


Next

Return to Welsh Encounters of the Nervous Kind

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron